Gay marriage arguments at Supreme Court spark debate in Wilmington


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Submitted: Tue, 03/26/2013 - 7:29pm
Updated: Wed, 03/27/2013 - 11:49am By:

WILMINGTON, NC (WWAY) — Should gay couples be allowed to marry and and be afforded the same benefits as a man and a woman? Some of our country’s brightest legal minds are left to answer that question as the battle hit the United States Supreme Court this afternoon.

While the debate over Proposition 8 rages in the Supreme Court, students at UNCW find themselves arguing whether this is a debate over values or equality.

“Any kind of sin is bad, and gay marriage falls under a sin,” UNCW student Will Oaks said.

Gay rights advocate Djuro Raskovic has a much different view.

“There is no reason besides bigotry that people don’t support gay marriage,” Raskovic said.

Members of the gay community at UNCW gathered in the LGBTQIA Room Tuesday afternoon to discuss the arguments before the Supreme Court about California’s ban on same sex marriage.

“I support it because I support equality for everyone,” Raskovic said. “It doesn’t matter race, color, nationality, gender or sexual orientation. Just equality for every single human being, because we are all human. It says all men and women are created equal in the constitution. It doesn’t say that all straight men and women are created equal.”

Conservatives on campus say the Bible clearly establishes marriage as being a holy union between a man and a woman making homosexuality and gay marriage sins.

“I’m not saying that someone who is in a homosexual relationship or has homosexual intentions is any worse off than anybody, because it says that all sins are weighed equally, but I do look at it as a sin and against God’s will,” Oaks said.

“We have separation of church and state for a reason, and I don’t understand why what the Bible says should be used as an interpretation for what our laws and government should be,” Raskovic said.

Several Supreme Court justices raised doubts today that the case is properly before them. Justice Anthony Kennedy suggested the court could dismiss the case with no ruling at all.

51 Comments

  • eGuest says:

    So you say any argument that can be made against same-sex marriage is completely invalid. Well here is one for you you show me were to gay men have had sex and made a baby.I will make it easy for you. Show me through the History of this plant where this has happened and I will go along with because it hasn’t. Being gay is not not right or natural.It is a lie from the pits of hell they are not in love it is just a type of immoral lust between two people. For if it was not they could have childern by natural means only.So I am waiting for you to prove this fact.Not Right

  • BobGuest says:

    I believe the argument that same sex marriage is a sin is an irrational thought perpetuated by closed minded people. There are many differing views based on the teachings of the bible, we do not hate the Jewish for their disbelief in Jesus. We do not hate Muslims for there belief in the koran. There are to many different views on life, religion and to many cultures to settle for one closed minded ideal. I work with and have friends that are on both sides of this hot button issue. I don’t base there value as a coworker or a friend on there religious or sexual orientation. This issue seems more to me a question of economics. The only entity that this would affect is the insurance companies and the increase in coverage and pay outs they will be responsible for. Let people be who they are. Don’t look down on them because your beliefs are different. I will keep my friends and continue to work with those on both sides of this issue. Because when this is settled there will be something new to fight about.

  • WilmingtonMAJ says:

    The problem with the opponents of gay marriage is that there is no good reason to prevent gay marriage. When you take religion and your personal feelings out of the equation (which any good juror should do), then there is no logical stand against it. Don’t talk to me about pro-creation either. If that’s the case then outlaw marriage between seniors or those that are barren. Personally my favorite argument is that gay marriage will “ruin” marriage. I’m sorry, but straight people have done that already. The divorce rate in the U.S. is I believe well over 50%. Not to mention that a man and woman who know each other for less than 10 minutes can legally get married. Or say a geriatric 82 year old Hugh Hefner who can get married to any 20 year old he is willing to pay for. Marriage is already a joke in this country…let everyone enjoy the fun!

  • Pro Same Sex Marriage says:

    Any argument that can be made against same-sex marriage is completely invalid. You cannot argue that it is a sin because our country was founded on religious freedom and if we allow religion to continue to take away a group of people’s right to marriage then that is not religious freedom, that is allowing religion to dictate something that not everyone in the US agrees with. If something does not harm you then how is it fair for you to take away someone’s right to a happy marriage with the person they love. It is complete ignorance to argue against such and is the same scenario as saying people of different races may not wed, which I’m sure quite a few of the people who are against gay marriage still feel the same way about that issue as well.

  • eGuest says:

    OK let’s take take religion and your personal feelings out of the equation.As you say,it’s just not the natural order of thing you can’t take 2 male or two female anything and make it work.you cant take 2 bolt and put them together you need nuts. you can’t take 2 female ends of a drop cord and make that work either.It’s just not natural.When you find something that is let me know that would be interesting.

  • Lyle Kunsford says:

    …no homo..

  • GuestReality says:

    So you want the “right” to dip into my pockets by straining the healthcare/federal/state/county systems to extend benefits to your “partner”? Isn’t that strained enough already? The whole fight for same sex marriage is all about finances, not the right to marry your “partner”.

  • GuestTaco says:

    this comment gave me a headache.

  • What101 says:

    Go Gay Pride somewhere else, we don’t want gay marriage in NC. PERIOD!

  • Erlkoening says:

    Another well educated liberal speaks out.

  • GuestReality says:

    The voters in the State of NC have already voted on this issue, and it’s a NO to gay marriage in this state. It’s already a done deal. Legally.

  • Guest CommonTater says:

    I hope you are just a troll and not seriously that stupid….

  • GuestO'Day says:

    What101, you are fundamentally confused. The “gay marriage” issue is about the RIGHTS of people and their ability to participate in society’s benefits. People’s rights are not for YOU to decide, these rights being fought for by the gay community belong to THEM and it is generations past due that they be recognized.

  • Old Guy says:

    The gays lost the vote! Oh well. Just because you didn’t get your way you now want to cry about it. North Carolina has spoken! Get over it! One man, one woman equals marriage! You don’t like it get out of North Carolina! See ya, addios, good bye!
    Here is a thought the next time there is an important vote on something that you want to support then get the people out to vote. WE DID!!!!

  • chris hooper says:

    I think that gays should allow to get married in nc i dnt see wats wrng with it now and days u see alot of gay couples raising children and also adopting them. the system is just messed up and dont want to see couples happy. but u no wat im a lesbian and proud of it and their is plenty more out hete in this world we are going to continue to shine GAY PRIDE

  • Citizen of the Republic says:

    Dogs and Cats living together?

  • Guest-o-matic says:

    The next step will be for pedophiles and rapists to come out of the closet to demand “acceptance, rights and benefits”! At this pace, just give it another 15 years!

  • Guest2020 says:

    There is no separation of church in state in the Constitution. This is not a matter of equality. Any man, straight or not, can marry any woman of his choice. Any woman, straight or not, can marry any man of her choice.

    This is a state issue and the federal government has no authority and our state spoke clearly on this matter when we voted for the marriage amendment.

  • Guestshelia says:

    The concept of marriage was invented to keep track of property. Children who were to inherit their parents’ property had to be “legitimate”. The government needed to know who to tax. “Love” has NOTHING to do with the institution, so it shouldn’t matter who marries to the government as long as they know who’s property to tax. The Church backed up the government with the threat of “sin” to enforce the law of the land. Even the Bible says to render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar = taxation.

    If gay people want to inherit each other’s property at death, there is nothing the government or law should do to prohibit it.

  • Guest 10101 says:

    If gay people want to inherit each other’s property at death, there is nothing the government or law should do to prohibit it.

    The rest of what you said has no basis in historical fact and is merely conjectural and essentially inaccurate. To not even mention the potential for procreation in your position exemplifies that.

  • Guest111 says:

    If a man wants to leave something to a man or a woman to a woman there is something legal called a will. Gay marriange is wrong.

  • GuestReality says:

    Marriage (also called “HOLY matrimony”), was instituted by God as a religious ceremony between a man and a woman, not human beings of the same sex. The very first marriage ever recorded was in the Book of Genesis in the Garden of Eden. Marriage is, and always has been, a RELIGIOUS ceremony. The government did not invent it to keep track of property.

    Scripture places tremendous emphasis on the sanctity of marriage. God gives us four reasons for this creation right up front, also in the book of Genesis.

    1. “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.” God needed the world to be populated, and the best way to fulfill His plan was through marriage.

    2. “And subdue it and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” In other words, man is to be in partnership with his wife in managing the earth and caring for the environment.

    3. “Then the Lord God said, ‘It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make him a helper suitable for him.'” Humankind’s deep need for companionship is another reason God established marriage (but again, between a man and a woman).

    4. That’s not all. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, be joined to his WIFE, and the two shall become one flesh.” God declares that a couple’s bodies are for the joy of their mate, an act that defines marriage as a special relationship. Again, marriage is between a man and a woman.

    God makes it clear from the very beginning that marriage is integral to His perfect plan. That’s why He demands that marriage be treated as the sacred treasure that it is.

    The whole gay marriage issue isn’t about love, it’s about gays wanting the same benefits and property rights that married men and women have. It’s about finances, not love.

  • GuestTroller says:

    Tax the church!

  • GuestReality says:

    What does that have to do with gay marriage?

  • Vog46 says:

    “Spousal social security, pension, tax benefits…. that is all covered by marriage. Marriage is a union between a man and a woman.”

    I can go and get married legally without religious influence and be LEGAL with all the trappings of “marriage” to include tax benefit, social security benefit and pension benefit.
    This does NOT require a belief in God or for me to be religious.
    Marriage is also secular in nature because not everyone believes in God or organized religion.
    Discrimination is against secular law.

    “I don’t waste my time on it in thought at all.”
    Oh but you should. There is a difference between what WE think is right and what the secular world thinks is right. For a person who believes following secular law becomes easy as our religious views put us in a mindset that is already “law abiding”.
    We do have to recognize that there are many people who don’t believe and who follow secular laws of governments. Our secular belief in “all men are created equal” has been interpreted by our Supreme Court to mean those of color and those of the opposite sex and so on.
    Should gays be any different?
    We can sit here and not give it any thought, however we do know that the world exists outside of our religious beliefs.
    Again, I don’t agree with it on a personal level – but I will not stand in the way of these folks obtaining legal stature.

    Vog

  • Vog46 says:

    Unfortunately it’s not as easy as getting a will.
    What about spousal social security?
    What about spousal pension if one is involved?
    What about the marriage tax benefits while living?

    You are correct in that leaving some physical assets only require a will but there are other assets that require the government defined concept of “marriage and spouse”.
    I do agree that based upon my Catholic upbringing that same sex marriage is wrong but THAT is based solely on my religious beliefs.

    Vog

  • Vog46 says:

    This is a subject of great contradiction for me. Because of my religious beliefs I do NOT believe that same sex couples should be able to marry.

    On the secular front, I ask myself several questions. Before organized religion took hold there was no “marriage” definition. I can only speculate what society was like then. To me, gay people fall into that category of people that seem to be discriminated against like blacks, immigrants, Hispanics, women before they won some hard earned “rights”. Is this discrimination due to our outlook on “gays”? I wrestle with that as I do have a religious upbringing.

    As for procreation? Again I ask myself a question. If procreation were the basis for marriage then 60 year old women would not be allowed to marry because they are no longer able to procreate.

    On the secular front no one should be discriminated against – we are all human beings. No one should judge based upon race, religion, or sexual orientation among many other criteria used. But for legal purposes – that maddening term used for “godless” purposes – same sex couples WILL win the right to marry be it now or in the near future. Gay marriage bans will be held to be unconstitutional in that narrow “legal purpose world” we live in.

    I will still oppose it on a personal level based upon my religious based upbringing but I will not stand in the way of gays getting married. For as much as it was both a religious and secular union for me and the Mrs – for many couples religion plays no part in the term “marriage”. In THAT context, there is no basis for discriminating against them.

    Vog

  • Guest111 says:

    Spousal social security, pension, tax benefits…. that is all covered by marriage. Marriage is a union between a man and a woman. These items are not in my vocabulary for a man and man and woman and woman. I don’t waste my time on it in thought at all.

  • GuestNow says:

    If gay marriage is illegal (as it is in 31 states), why should gay couples have any of these benefits? They are benefits for legally married couples. If you’re breaking the laws of your state, why should you receive any kind of benefit?

  • Vog46 says:

    Social security is a FEDERAL benefit not state.
    Just like military pension is a FEDERAL benefit not state.

    The blending of federal statutes and state statutes gets confusing.

    so if the Supremes rule that Prop 8 and DOMA are illegal (which unfortunately I believe they will)
    Then should gay couples be allowed he same secular marriage rights as heterosexual couples do?

    Vog

  • GuestReality says:

    “Before organized religion took hold there was no “marriage” definition.”
    – Organized religion was created by God, who defined marriage as being between a man and a woman. Adam and Eve were the first married couple.

    “I can only speculate what society was like then. To me, gay people fall into that category of people that seem to be discriminated against like blacks, immigrants, Hispanics, women before they won some hard earned “rights”.
    – I’m not sure what your point is here because fat people, skinny people, tall people, short people, etc., are all discriminated against by society one way or another. The point I see is that God says homosexuality is wrong and actually describes it as an “abomination”. That’s the only group of people I’m aware of that he describes that particular way.

    “As for procreation? Again I ask myself a question. If procreation were the basis for marriage then 60 year old women would not be allowed to marry because they are no longer able to procreate.”
    – The majority of people marry before they’re 60. But, back in Biblical days, people lived to be much older than today. Abraham’s wife, Sarah, conceived when she was about 90 years old.

    “On the secular front no one should be discriminated against – we are all human beings. No one should judge based upon race, religion, or sexual orientation among many other criteria used. But for legal purposes – that maddening term used for “godless” purposes – same sex couples WILL win the right to marry be it now or in the near future. Gay marriage bans will be held to be unconstitutional in that narrow “legal purpose world” we live in.”
    – I agree that it will happen eventually, but that will never make it right. It’s wrong in God’s eyes. The Bible never changes. God never changes.

    “I will still oppose it on a personal level based upon my religious based upbringing but I will not stand in the way of gays getting married. For as much as it was both a religious and secular union for me and the Mrs – for many couples religion plays no part in the term “marriage”. In THAT context, there is no basis for discriminating against them.”
    – Marriage is a religious ceremony, sanctioned by God and defined as a union between a man and a woman. For gay couples, if “religion plays no part in the term ‘marriage’, then they shouldn’t get married. Why would they want to take part in a God sanctioned, religious ceremony? Just live together if religion plays no part. It has nothing to do with religion or “love” for them. It has to do with finances – having the same benefits that married couples have. In the end, it’s all about money.

  • Guest1971 says:

    You summarize so many of my feelings on this topic. From a religious standpoint I believe that gay marriage is wrong and that it is a sin.

    I always go back to the story of Jesus & the adulterous woman – he condemned the crowd for wanting to stone her (judge her) but at the end of this story he told her to go and sin no more. I have trouble finding that point between judging and being a party to allowing a sin to continue.

  • Vog46 says:

    Your post holds water ONLY if you “believe”.
    If not you have to rely on secular law

    Is it all about money?
    I’m not so sure.

    Vog

  • GuestNow says:

    In my own opinion, no…they shouldn’t. It’s illegal in 31 states.

  • Vog46 says:

    I suspect what will happen is that both DOMA and Prop 8 will be held unconstitutional. That means future court challenges with the Roberts court will dismantle all 31 state laws that prohibit same sex marriages.
    I hope, HOPE – that it will be left up to the individual states but I have my doubts.

    That is for the secular law.
    My “law of the land” will always be not to allow same sex marriage.

    Vog

  • GuestReality says:

    And your post only holds water if you don’t believe. We’re both allowed to express our beliefs on this forum.

    Yes, indeed, I believe it IS all about money. It’s all about benefits, property, 401(k)’s, estates….I could go on and on. Just think about it.

  • GuestReality says:

    “I can go and get married legally without religious influence and be LEGAL with all the trappings of “marriage” to include tax benefit, social security benefit and pension benefit.”

    If you’re talking about same sex marriage, no you can’t….not in North Carolina and not in 31 other states. If you’re talking about a man/woman marriage, yes you can; but that marriage would be done for the “trappings” you mentioned, which are financial benefits. It certainly wouldn’t be for a spiritual reason, which defeats the purpose of the marriage ceremony. That makes it a marriage of convenience for financial gain.

    If you’re a true Christian, you can’t just consider secular beliefs. You also need to consider God’s law and trust His determination of what’s right and wrong. He says that homosexuality is an “abomination”. That makes same sex marriage wrong. The problem with a lot of Christians today is that they’re afraid to offend anyone. No one seems to have that same problem with offending us. If you’re lukewarm on this kind of issue, please remember that God doesn’t like lukewarm. He would prefer you to be either hot or cold. Revelation 3:15 says, “I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!” Revelation 3:16 goes on to say, “So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth!” We need to be either hot or cold for God. I choose to be hot.

  • northern yank says:

    How long will it be before they start letting people marry animals? It will start out just the same. saying we should have the right to be happy too, and then its why cant my horse recieve the same benifets that i do? This country is going to crap!!!!!!!!!!

  • Vog46 says:

    There’s a difference – bestiality is against the law, along with being deemed wrong by many religions.

    Vog

  • eGuest says:

    It does not work take the two female ends of a drop cord and make it work or the male ends .Nope won’t work either.There a reason for man and women it works.God created Adam an Eve not Adam and Steve.

  • Guest Reply says:

    “God created Adam an Eve not Adam and Steve”.

    Never understood that scenario about Adam and Eve. With that analogy…You and I married our….Sister?????
    All I know and heard was…that evening after God created Eve…Adam wanted her to cook…”Spare Ribs” for dinner!!

  • Erlkoening says:

    I noticed Raskovic was not meeting in the Hetero Room at UNCW to make his false claim of bigotry. As usual liberals are so steeped in their intolerance and ignorance they don’t see when they are making Folsom of them selves.

    So next time just have this meeting at the Hetero room at UNCW.

  • GuestMan. says:

    Who performed the ceremony in the Garden of Eden? It says “be fruitful and multiply” not get married and multiply. It appears you are making up your explanations of God’s words to justify your arguments.
    Actually, until the Middle Ages the ceremony to get married barely had religious overtures. The only part that religion had was to say a prayer at the wedding, but, as always, you give organized religion a foot in the door the next thing you know you can’t get them out of your house.
    There is so much hate in the world, (as is evidenced on this forum), that I am happy when two people, regardless of gender, fall in love and want to be together forever.
    Keep your nose out of other people’s business.

  • GuestNow says:

    Wow! You sure are rude and that doesn’t help convince any body that you are right. In fact I’m more inclined now to believe GuestReality’s post than I am yours. At least his post is more logical and written with less anger than yours.

  • Guest-o-matic says:

    And you homosexuals just can’t stand people that disagree with your lifestyle, even in the least. Well, face up to the facts Kilroy, there’s a vast majority of people that DO NOT agree with the homosexual lifestyle and never will. There are a lot of people that are “tolerant” of you, but that is a very long way from “acceptance”. You insist on flaunting your lifestyle in peoples faces, imposing it on our children in their school studies and demand your “rights” from the government, but where the rubber hits the road, you’re at the bottom of the hill of Pike’s Peak with a 2 cylinder and three flat tires. The general public just isn’t there, they aren’t even close.
    The person you responded to is fully correct. You don’t have to marry to show your “love and together forever” mess, the marriage portion is simply for “material bene’s” and serves absolutely no other purpose.

    One more thing for you to hear!!! We’ll poke our damn noses in and out of peoples business anytime we want and as long as it gets published and available on this website or others!

  • GuestReality says:

    God Himself performed the marriage ceremony in the Garden of Eden. He created it, He sanctified it, and He performed it.

    As I said, God gives us four REASONS for marriage according to the Bible, ONE of which is “Be fruitful and multiply.” Do you have a reading comprehension problem, or do you just choose to ignore what you don’t agree with? .

    I’m not surprised the Middle Ages marriage ceremonies “barely had religious overtures”, after all, it was a brutal time with all the war, famine, and plagues going on. It wasn’t a very religious time, and I’m sure God was blamed for everything that goes wrong, much like He is today. However, the marriage ceremony and the purpose for it has endured.

    Your last remark, “Keep your nose out of other people’s business” indicated an over abundance of anger and a serious lack of education on how to express that anger in a meaningful conversation. This is a public forum, and everyone here is allowed to express their opinions whether you agree with them or not. I will continue to do so.

    Thank you for your comments.

  • Guest2020 says:

    People would be minding their own business if others wouldn’t put their business out there for the world to see.

  • Guest Reply says:

    …a gay man wants to marry a gay woman…is that allowed? After all…they are still both gay.
    What’s the weather for this Saturday?

  • Guest2020 says:

    If you want your gay lover to inherit your property, all you have to do is have a properly notarized will.

  • northern yank says:

    sodomy was too!

  • GuestTroller says:

    Guest Reality, my call to “tax the church” was really an encoded message to my illuminati brethren.

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