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Don't ask, don't tell debate

READ MORE: Don't ask, don't tell debate
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Don't ask, don't tell... it's been the military's policy regarding homosexuality for years, but that could soon change. At the request of President Obama, Congress will vote on whether to repeal the policy and allow homosexuals to serve openly in the military.
Secretary of Defense Robert Gates says it's not a matter of if gays and lesbians will be allowed to serve openly, but when.

Since 1994 the Pentagon has discharged about 13,000 homosexual troops from the military.
Some opponents are worried repealing the ban could cause a military mass exodus.
In 2008 the military times survey suggested almost 25-percent of active troops would leave the service if gays were allowed to serve openly.

Current and former troops have responded with mixed reviews.
Master Sergeant Greg Scott says, "most of the Marines that I've worked with, that I know are not in favor of the repealing of the ban."
But former Air Force Sergeant Kory Grant says, "it shouldn't matter. You know you put the uniform on just like I put the uniform on, or did put the uniform on. And we should all just be able to fight for our country."

Congress must approve the decision before the military can remove the don't ask, don't tell policy. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates asked for a year long study to figure out the best way to repeal the policy. In the mean time gates asked the military to loosen enforcement of the ban on gay troops.

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Gays in the military debate

This will give a whole new meaning to "I watch his back and he watches mine".

Homosexual In The Military

Hope you’ll listen to my radio show on homosexuals in the military.Comments welcome.

http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4140

John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Communications Director, Institute on the Constitution
Host, “TheAmericanView” radio show
Recovering Republican
JLof@aol.com

Gay people ALREADY serve our country, why force them to lie?

Some here may have missed the point of the discussion. What's being debated is the repeal of the policy known as "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". Some here seem to be under the impression that there are no gay people serving right now, and that this policy somehow keeps gay people from serving. No.

Homosexual Americans serve in that uniform with the same pride, dignity and dedication as any heterosexual. This policy forces our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines to be dishonest on a day-to-day basis with those with whom they have to serve. THAT hurts cohesion, not their private lives.

This policy is on its way out, thankfully. Americans who volunteer to be shot at, for me, will have my always have my support.

What does being gay have to do with anything?

Seriously people...what does being gay have to do with defending your country? If you are in the military you are there to do a job. You wanted to be there. If you can not do your job because there is a gay man or woman right beside you, then the military isnt for you! Its a job....do your job. Not being allowed in the military for who you are, is called discrimnation. When will our country learn.....the USA is all about equality for everyone....though everyone is not treated equal in this country....but soon it will change!

Great!!

Great, now I will be able to join. No, wait, I'm a little too lazy to make it.

Dont worry great...

Dont worry great..at the rate theses new crazy laws are being presented and passed, they will make it easier for lazy people to join also..haha..just another sign of the way America is turning..we were founded as a nation on the constitution and the bible,,and we are slowly turning away from BOTH!!! I mean if our own leader doesnt follow the bible why should we, right?? WRONG...keep following him and see where we wind up!!!!

Clevenative

I was not surprised to see you here and posting on this subject....was wondering if WSN ran out of room for your stupid posts.....

Glad I got out when I

Glad I got out when I did....

Gays and Lesbians in the Military

The current policy of "don't ask, don't tell" should be left alone. President Clinton had it right when he initiated this policy. Of course, the bottom line is that gays and lesbians want more benefits and increased special protection. It is a self-interest, not necessarily beneficial to our military force. I feel the military will be weakened significantly if the policy is changed.

Dress 'em up, send 'em out....

So what's next? Military sanctioned pink camo fatigues? New radio codes that incorporate a lisp to decipher? Dress 'em on up and send 'em out!!! If we can go just a little farther and accept pedophiles too (everything is supposed to be acceptable these days right?), then we can get them in the military. Then everybody can be accepted, happy, warm and fuzzy!

You people are so ignorant

Do you even know any gay men? You have the stereotypical image of homosexuals that is so off base. Homosexual lifestyles vary just as much heterosexual ones.

There are already pedophiles in the military, one was arrested just last week. There are also rapists, murderers and anything else you can think of. Grow a brain.

Actually

My reply was meant to be sarcastic. I guess I have a hard time understanding why, when no one else is supposed to discriminate, the US Government is allowed?

Dress 'em up!

Actually might not be a bad idea when you put it that way. What could scare a bunch of terrorists from the Middle East more than a bunch of gay men in pink fatigues with make-up and great big guns running toward them!

flushing

I am being truthful, and not trying to be negative.
Morale and trust are needed for combat and high stress situations.
Disolving this law will destroy both and make our military weak.
In a grunt situation, I would guess(And i am right..) that someone who chooses to be openly gay in an all male combat patrol unit will not last... They would be mentally tormented and scarred for life. WIll the military have rules to protect the openly gay marines? Of course.. WIll it work? Absolutely not..
Perhaps in an administrative cycle, it wouldn't be an issue...
So of course the pentagon agrees.. The generals KNOW that once a homosexual comes out of the closet, their tour will be cut short... If the soldier or marine chooses to rough it out and stay in, think of the emotional distress and damage it wil cause...
Some things are left better NOT talked about... And this is one of them...
I would think, that homosexuals who enjoytheir jobs and want to keep their jobs, ranks promotions, etc.. won't say anything anyway.. because they know how destructive it would be...
Don't ask, Don't tell kept morale up, and people alive in combat... Breaking the silence will wreak havok umong ranks, and flush openly gay people out of the military and mentally damage some of those for life... It is a STUPID idea for both sides to do away with don't ask don't tell..

Gays Serve Openly in Israeli Military

The Israeli Military has accepted gays in its armed forces for decades. Many Israeli officers are openly gay, and according to a Florida newspaper, the St. Petersburg Times, a brigadier general quoted in a recent study said Israelis show a "great tolerance" for homosexual soldiers.

David Saranga, a former military officer and now Israel’s consul for media and public affairs in New York said, "It's a non-issue... You can be a very good officer, a creative one, a brave one and be gay at the same time."

We all know that Israel has one of the most powerful and effective militaries in the world. Enough said?

The military will survive with gays....

...I'm not sure the gays will, in the short term.

Now, there certainly are gays in the military now. "Don't ask, don't tell" did a lot of good, hoever. It eliminated the witch-hunts that were once prevalent if a commander heard a rumor or suspected that "Lieutenant Wiggins just doesn't walk right." It allowed homosexuals to carry on their lifestyle as long as they kept it under wraps. Of course, they don't like it because they can't be open and public in their orientation or emotions. It forces them to stay in the closet.

Considering all the pro-gay indoctrination provided by schools, the media and Hollywood, this wouldn't be an issue in thirty years. Homosexuality won't be looked at as a sexual perversion or mortal sin then, just "another form of sex."

Right now, however, it is going to be hell on Earth for those members who choose to "come out"....they will suffer and accordingly the military will suffer.

In the case of the Marines, small unit cohesion, so essential to success in combat, will evaporate. One man in a rifle squad can be ostracized for failing a PFT or going UNQ on the rifle range. Group morale goes out the window, the platoon commander and platoon sergeant are on the squad leader's case, the squad leader is on the fire-team leader's case, and everyone is down on the deadbeat who let his squad and platoon down.

Everyone has seen "A Few Good Men," and trust me, that kind of pressure IS exerted on a Marine judged to be "different than the rest of us."

So imagine substituting a PFT failure or going unqualified on the rifle range with "He's gay." For a service that relies upon hard-muscled, high-n-tight uniformity in their norms and mores, that one guy just isn't going to fit in. He's going to be a mighty unhappy camper.

It will be worse out of the field and in the barracks. When LCpl Smith suggests to his roommate that they could get ready for morning inspection faster if they slept in one bed, how is his roommate going to react? What happens when two male marines are seen holding hands and dancing at the E-club? No amount of "Leave them alone and accept them" orders from Washington are going to make them fit in.

How many Matthew Shepherd incidents will we hear about at Fort Bragg and Camp LeJeune?

I'm a firm believer in equal rights for gays, but this isn't going to come without heavy costs. In a way, those male gays who come out first may be among the bravest of the brave....because if they think that the platoon members are simply going to say, "Oh, okay," they're in for a biiiig disappointment.

You can run a 300 PFT, shoot 250 on the range, but when it gets out that you're gay you'll be as welcomed and accepted as your average leper.

(BTW, the double-standard of gay = disgusting, Lesbianism = hot is alive and well in the military as it is in society as a whole. The men seem to fully accept Lesbians in their ranks. Secretly, I think it's beacuse male egos are generally so big they think that "She's only a Lesbian because she's never been with ME!")

I am an ex-Marine and I

I am an ex-Marine and I assure you that I would much rather be on the battlefield next to a gay guy that knows what sight alignment and trigger squeeze is all about and can shoot straight than a straight guy cringing and praying.

Sorry, I don't buy it....

I know many Marines. None of them EVER refer to themselves as "Ex-Marines"! They will quickly and emphatically correct you to tell you they are "Former Marines".

The only "Ex-Marine" that I know of got court martialed and dishonorably discharged for being caught in a lewd and perverse sexual act with another Marine in a barrack. To this day, nobody wants him around them!

Maybe YOU were the other guy!

Guest 461

OK, FORMER Marine.........Whatever gave you the right to make such implications I don't know. All I did was express an opinion. Seems like you are somewhat hostile for some reason, little fellow. Did you try to come on to one of your buddies and end up in the shower under a blanket?

There are no ex

This guy wasn't a Marine. There are NO ex-Marines.
Going back to Tun Tavern, there are only Marines. The President's force....
Once a Marine.. Always a Marine...

Hmm..

"Considering all the pro-gay indoctrination provided by schools, the media and Hollywood, this wouldn't be an issue in thirty years. Homosexuality won't be looked at as a sexual perversion or mortal sin then, just "another form of sex.""

You ASSUME that Christians and those who believe in God, which account for the LARGE MAJORITY in this country, will just let the schools teach what they want without countering it at home or in church Sunday School classes...which will NEVER EVER happen. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with teaching love for the person, but teaching a person to love the sin...just isn't going to happen, at least in churches.

gay marines

Years ago in college I took a legal class on "deviant" behavior (as in deviant from societal norms..not "corrupt" behavior). We found from a study that there were more homosexuals in the USMC than in any other service, by a large margin. This will be interesting for the marine corp due to the fact they have not done the heavy lifting in the war on terror, leaving more marines (percentage wise) on base, while more army units have been getting the assignments.

Largo, Where I appreciate

Largo,

Where I appreciate your "tolerance" of gays, I find your response to this article to be indicative of the kind of subdued and backhanded bigotry that allows prejudice against gays and lesbians to flourish. You have made some very sweeping statements in your response, few of which are based on fact.

You say that DADT stopped the witch hunts against gays and lesbians serving in the armed forces. You are wrong. According to military statistics, DADT barely slowed it down (you can fact check that at http://www.sldn.org/). You go on say things about unit cohesion and "sleeping in the same bed". Really? Do you think that gays are so forward and sex-driven that we're just going to throw ourselves at the nearest man? Also, you make a blanket statement about lesbian acceptance in the military. You really couldn't be more wrong on this one. Under DADT nearly twice the amount women are discharged as men (again, fact check at the site above).

You do a disservice to the members of our active military by saying that they would be unable to accept gays serving openly. These are our trained warriors, our offense, and our defense. They are overseas fighting our battles for us every day. They are fighting our wars. They are not lumbering Neanderthals. They can handle something as insignificant as gays openly serving.

Think about it this way: each day gay and lesbian service members go into the field to protect our liberties and freedoms. Each day they are denied their own. Regardless of your hypothetical consequences of repealing DADT, that is an injustice, and isn't fighting injustice what America is all about?

Were you a Marine?

I was for twenty-two years. As a company First Sergeant I saw it all. The good, the bad, the ugly and yes, the gay.

As a drill instructor at Parris Island I trained recruits and know that one of the worst insults you could heap upon somoeone who was not up to speed was to call him a fairy (or worse). None of them liked that, because none of them wanted to be thought of that way. That's because most Marines want to think of themselves as John Wayne, not Perez Hilton.

The parochial website you listed may bemoan the evils of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" to achieve its political goals, but I, sir, know Marines. I can assure you that they are not going to respond well to this at all. Small unit discipline and combat efficieny will suffer in the short term, because comraderie will not be extended to those who don't fit the societal mold. I've seen it too many times to fool myself into thinking it won't happen.

Now, the existing policy will be repealed, the gays will be allowed to be openly gay, and in the long term the Marine Corps will adapt and survive. But for now please don't blame the young Lance Corporal who, when asked out on a date, responds with a horizontal butt-stroke that involves his rifle.

(Lest any of you think that I'm being politically incorrect, a horizontal butt-stroke is one of three close combat moves with the rifle: Vertical butt-stroke, horizontal butt-stroke, and the smash. There are two movements with the bayonet, the slash and the jab.)

Use some common sense and accept reality!

You gay folk are going to have to understand that the majority of people flat out, do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle! Be it because of genetics, how your mamma dominated you, how bad your daddy beat you, or how many kids made fun of your whiney lisp as a child. It is considered unnatural behavior BY THE MAJORITY! Keep the word MAJORITY in mind. Society has only decided to look the other way and ignore your lifestyle, not accept it. Total acceptance will never happen in our lifetime and even longer beyond that. The majority of society still believe in procreation.
And with the military, they look for mental stability in their recruits. Anything to signal a "problem" such as ADD, ADHD, OCD, Depression, Anti-Social behavior, Criminal behavior and such is frowned upon and usually grounds for rejection. Simply put, the military searches for the strong, those that are able to perform and think under severe duress. "Confused" individuals or those with "issues" are no less than catastrophic in those scenarios and are an immediate danger to their fellow soldiers.
It just isn't going to happen. You can dream, scream, and cry until the cows come home, but it isn't going to happen.....

same to you

What made YOU such a homophobic? Was it because of faulty genetics, how your Mother dominated you or how bad your Father beat you, or how many kids made fun of your whiny lisp as a child?

There are many people that accept homosexuals as human beings and equals.

Not one person in my family is homophobic. I bet everyone in yours is. You teach hate and intolerance for someone who wishes to serve his/her country based on a small part of their being. What a shame. Perhaps the "Confused" individual or the one with "issues" is staring at you in the mirror.

show me

Show me a Marine that DOESN'T have issues and I'll listen to you.

embarrassed

Humanity is no always very humane and whoever posted the above comment is a good example of that. Less than 50 years ago, African americans were considered 2nd class citizins, women too for that matter. it is nothing more than fear that motivates that mentality. It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. Are you so insecure about your own sexuality that you must lash out at others?

the strong?

The military doesn't search for anybody. Most people go to them because its a guaranteed job. Some people go out of a sense of duty. But people in the military certainly aren't stronger than others in society (many would argue its the other way around).